Hagerty.com

Is Tesla playing dirty to win the ’Ring?

Let’s face it: there’s something deeply bizarre, if not pathetic, about the upcoming Clash Of The Electric Titan sedans happening at the Nürburgring. The Porsche Taycan and Tesla Model S are both downright obese by the standards of normal passenger vehicles; the Model S flirts with the 5000-pound line while the Taycan smashes right through it with a listed weight of 5200 pounds. (The infamous Cadillac Escalade, for comparison, hits the scales at 5578, while the sixth-generation Corvette Z06 was 3130.) And when it comes to timed laps, the old track-coach mantra of “Fat Don’t Fly” applies in spades.


This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2019/09/12/tesla-playing-dirty-to-win-the-ring

It’s not a production car, but remember how did the VW IDr fare in the green hell of the 'Ring?

Do either vehicles stand a chance? 6 minutes, 5 seconds lap time is the time to beat.

Of course, some of it still is the skill of the driver. Also, one could argue VW’s previous experience in the 'Ring with the IDr would give them the leg up with the Porsche Taycan.

“An increased focus on fun-to-drive electric cars will make a better world for everyone…” How in the world is that?

If that is an attempt at a “green” conclusion to the article, that is a very poor attempt. Electric cars are not clean and not “green” at all. Their tail pipe emissions are simply down the road and the “carbon foot print” and contamination factor for battery manufacturing is big.

Hagerty, I truly love you guys as an insurance company, and the fun you bring to owning a classic cars, but please stay off the political “green” wagon. If “green” were truly what Government and concerned citizens wanted, the focus would be on promoting hydrogen.

Sorry but electric cars are greener. Gasoline takes a lot of energy to create from the transport of oil to the refineries where it is made into gas and then transported again. Electricity can be made from renewable resources. Plus electric vehicles are much more efficient using the energy ftom the electrons than IC engines are using the energy from gas. Add to that the fact that you can create electricity in optimal conditions at a power plant versus gas engines using the energy mostly suboptimally means less overall pollution.

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Electric cars not green?? I run mine on 100% solar energy and it has an efficiency ratio of around 80% compared to the best IC ratio of less than half of that!
As to batteries the lithium is quite valuable and recyclable.
Where would the supposedly greener hydrogen come from?

Said it before in a different thread, but here it comes again:

Who cares? No clutch pedal.

I’ll also add this:

Who cares? Sounds like a Hamilton Beach blender.

Go ahead, tell me I’m an out-of-touch dinosaur. Tell me how fast they are. Tell me it’s the future. Tell me about the march of technology. If you like this stuff; have at it. Freedom of choice is fantastic. Just don’t have my tax money subsidizing it.

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Electric car, green believers like to ignore all of the costs of producing an electric car. they think that an electric car is born clean and has no pollution footprint, In fact electric cars are loaded with hazardous materials and hard to get and refine metals. The environmental costs of getting the rare earth metals and materials for the batteries, motors and semiconductors are much higher then the car will ever save in its life. That is also not even considering the that when it comes time to start recycling electric cars it is going to be an environmental disaster. In fact electric cars should not be called “zero emission cars” they should be “displaced emission cars”, because they are very wasteful, but not in the place they are used. Another fact is that the “green” followers of electric cars don’t admit that unless you start building lots of nuclear power plants and a whole new electric grid right now there will be no way to meet the mandates that are being made law for production of electric cars. And no there is no way to use solar and wind power to produce enough power, that is just a dream of people that have no knowledge of the scale of the power requirements needed. The environmentalist does not like to admit that the modern internal combustion engine is the most efficient device there is for transportation and in many urban areas must produce cleaner air then it takes in, and will not go away in the future.

Regarding the cars and their designers, I find it hard to imagine that a battery company that sells cars can beat out the engineering skills of a company whose very life over the past 71 years has been shaped by its first-hand experience in the cauldron of motorsports.

Competing at the Green Hell will draw a lot of initial attention, but I cannot at this point imagine any other outcome than Porsche smoking Tesla. Game on!

Us old guys might not like electric just like the horse people didn’t like cars at the turn of the 20th Century but they are here and here to stay. Anybody that doesn’t see that is just fooling themselves. BTW. That 71 years of engineering by car companies is pretty much old school stuff in this new world and not much use at all. Also The Porsche is electric too and Elon Musk is ahead of them in engineering Electric cars.

There’s a quote from Richard Feynman that goes; “It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong.”

Let’s wait and see what the result is of the experiment, and meanwhile, we can document just how far Tesla deviates from a production vehicle.

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At the end of the day does it really matter which is faster around the ‘Ring? At the end of the day what really matters is how does the car make you feel when you’re driving it, and how do you feel driving it? If your money and tastes are for 3-pedal IC cars then do that. If you’re concerned about the environment for your grand kids and you don’t want to select your own ratios or feel hear and smell you propulsion unit scooting you down the road then go with an EV. But please let’s leave this inconsequential and inconclusive debate alone. Everyone wants to compare 0-60 and top speeds and ‘Ring lap times when in the real world they don’t matter. All the horsepower and torque in the world never made anyone a better driver. All the tech in the world never made anyone a safer driver. Just buy what turns you on drive the crap outta it and be happy with that. Driving is about freedom and enjoyment not false social constructs and silly comparisons

A couple of reality checks. This is the battle to satisfy only those in California, especially the Queen of Green, Mary Nichols of CARB. Unfortunately, more than half of the US is not temperate California, and thus the >30% loss to cold on the batteries is never discussed. Why don’t they run these tests in the deep cold of a Scandanavian winter?
The other irony is that the North American Taycan introduction was staged at Niagara Falls, Canada, in the mists of the falls and the hum of the dynamos. It is that hydro generation that was the only “real” generation that Porsche featured (China, solar and Germany, wind, hardly reliable for 800v charging). According to the Union of Concerned Scientists (which I maintain are neither), the cleanest, greenest place in America to run/charge an electric vehicle is upstate New York, where hydro and nuke carry the load. Unfortunately our winter average temps (45+ days never above freezing) are way below optimal operating range for EVs.

So, who wins? I don’t believe pure electric is ready yet, so I continue to drive my e-hybrid Panamera in upstate NY, no longer worried about winter driving range as I was with my BMW i3…and the engineering antics to satisfy CARB and political ‘leadership’ in these key market states.

Would like to see how many laps before the batterys are dead. I’m not ready to take a 500 mile trip.

IC’s time has come and gone. Tesla came out with a better electric car on their first try than all the world’s car makers could come up with in more than a hundred years. Battery energy density doubles every ten years and that’s when we are not even trying. Today’s IC cars will probablyn never wear out before they become obsolete.

Thank You
It’s time for Tesler to get off the Taxpayers back

I’m not anti-electric and the motors are by their nature torque monsters. All good. Except the batteries add too much weight. Every sports car enthusiast knows weight is the enemy of handling. You cannot defy the laws of physics no matter how low in the chassis they put them. Maybe someday they’ll be featherweight like lithium iron batteries are. But until then the weight extracts too big a penalty.

All these comments about how EV’s pollute and so on. Well everything pollutes.

With all things considered, in terms of fuel type, a single large powerplant is going to be far more thermally efficient than a thousand little car engines running around the roads.

Just consider the exhaust & cooling systems on a car, which must be accelerated every time the car moves. With an EV, all that stuff is bolted to the ground, at the power station, where it belongs.

So much EV hate.

Besides that, the Taycan is not a production car either. At least the one that ran the Nurburgring. It was a pre-production model so who knows what was different than they are putting in ones you can buy.

Bottom line is Porsche and Tesla can probably go back and forth on this and the winners are those who like EVs.

I’ve been driving EVs for a few years now after 40+ years of driving ICE vehicles. I’ll never go back. But that aside, I figured that if anyone could come out with a true “Tesla killer” it would be the likes of Porsche. So I was really surprised when I read the specs of the Taycan compared to a Model S. Basically the S accelerates quicker, has way more range, free LTE and over the air updates, an expansive (and growing) nationwide system of fast charging stations, autopilot that works well (and always improving) despite still being in beta and even more than twice the cargo space. And all this for about half the price of the Taycan. Oh and for the green comparison, here’s a fun video (narrated by one of the stars of the Red Dwarf britcom): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQpX-9OyEr4 (p.s. I’ve not entirely abandoned ICE. I still have and have no intention of ever parting with my 1972 one owner (picked up at the factory) Mercedes 220D and my one owner 1972 Honda CB750.)