When 2+0 equals ridiculous

My 10-year-old son has informed me that he prefers instrumental jazz because “it’s not full of all that ‘Oh, bayyybeeee’ stuff.” I told him that I sympathized but also that there are two rock bands serving the very limited clientele of people who want to hear music without the mention of romance: Iron Maiden and Rush. Most car people think of Rush as the “Red Barchetta” band but the true fans all eventually get around to their utterly cringeworthy 1980-release paean to atheism known as “Free Will,” which contains the following line:

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2019/10/08/jack-baruths-avoidable-contact-32-equals-ridiculous

And as for me, I will choose not to listen to Rush because they’re awful.


If you like intelligent lyrics and creative rock you have to like Rush. As for rear seats, either have ones that are real or don’t bother. I have a Ram crewcab and a Subaru Outback when I need to carry more than one passenger. There are two Corvettes in my garage that allow me to limit my choice of accompanying chatter to one person. Someone that will turn it up when Rush is playing!

My 09 Audi A4 convertible has rear seats that no one over 5 years old could use.
However, my two standard poodles love sitting back there with the top down. (wife in the front seat of course)

“It’s one thing for the government to force the arrangement upon you, as was apparently the case with the U.S.-market Mercedes SL and the Fiat Spider.” It is my understanding that is also why the VW Karmann Ghia didn’t have a back seat in its last couple of years of production. That was ValksWagen’s way of meeting the new rear seat belt regulations. A previous owner of my '70 Karmann Ghia convertible must have had very small children or very large optimism… There 3 sets of seat belts back there. I can remember riding with my brother in the back seat of Dad’s Karmann Ghia convertible, but we were both in Jr High at the time.
And the Karmann Ghia is a backup to a 2002 F-150 with a standard cab, which had 650 miles on it when I bought it new, (and now has 330,000) because that was the closest standard cab, long bed truck the local dealer could find. Until such time as I have an actual need for the back seat, I see extra room in the cargo bed as much more useful.

Oh, the band. I couldn’t remember Limbaugh saying that. :slight_smile:

…when two-seat sports cars wade into the rubicon of comfortable long-distance touring, everything gets a little roomier and a package shelf offers welcomed utility within the form factor, whereas the more-diminutive plus-two seats offer ridiculously-unusable and typically-unused pretense…

…my understanding is that many of the plus-two seats weren’t even originally-offered for utility, but for insurance classification: all the more reason to recognise that in many cases the honest package shelf is a more-elegant expression of design intent than shoehorned bolstering and three-point belts…

Lets get one thing straight here before I go any further, Neil Peart writes books just like the International Harvester Tractor parts counter guy he is, but when it comes to songs he wrote the soundtrack of my life along with the other two guys, one of whom can sing, play open cords on a bass, one keyboard with his free hand, and another with his foot while making it look easy.

Oh and after my last car event I learned that everyone apparently has a Corvette in the garage at home, I may pickup a C4 just so that I can start saying that I have a Corvette at home in the garage as well. Someone should tell these people that the only car they have is the one people can see.

Ford Made a 2 seater, they called it the Thunderbird, you may have heard of it before, it was not a Corvette and it was aimed at a totally different market than the Corvette. The Thunderbird was aimed at the higher class more well healed secretaries that didn’t want the party girl Mustang the same way that the Corvette was aimed at testosterone junkies that didn’t want the bulk of the Camaro.

I have been driving 2 seaters that fit my budget and lifestyle for over 30 years, a Fiero when I was a Navy Submariner and used to spend six months a year at sea where a Corvette, I could have bought a 68 Corvette convertible or the Fiero for the same price when I was doing my pre boot camp shopping, would be nothing but something to worry about the entire underway. Later a Miata that serves me well.

I went to a car event recently, I showed with my Miata, and another guy brought his rack body pickup and both were valid collector cars. What wasn’t cool were the people that were either too obsessed with or embarrassed by their cars to bring them, who cares what it is, it’s your car and makes you happy you should be proud of it.

Some advice, all cars are valid and if they bring their owner happiness that is all they need to do. You may not agree with the guy that will be waxing his Yugo this weekend, but you should at least get it.

I get it that your gen x/millenial angst may be tongue in cheek, but me thinks that you may also be biting the hand that feeds you. I insure my 7 Model Ts and 3 Mustangs, including a 2012 Laguna Seca, with Hagerty. Sorry that you don’t appreciate Ford’s effort to reduce weight with Laguna Seca’s rear seat delete and that it doesn’t meet your definition of a “race car”. If I want to go out to dinner with friends, I can always squeeze eight into my Excursion.

I for one, appreciate the author’s varied and far flung references from the giant in Gullivers Travels, Brobdingnag, in a previous article, to a chain of strip clubs, Spearmint Rhino, in this article. Its good practice for the NY Times crossword puzzle.

It’s only 911 owners that get this conversation. Every journalist and journalists lap dog follower, when presented with a 911, screech ‘rear engine bad’ with some rubbish about physics.

The 911s continued and continuing success is bound to the rear engine layout. The rear engine creates two small but useable seats, for children, short adults on short trips. They also flip down to create a 2+0 seater, and even have a lip for preventing stuff from sliding off. Even the 959 had 4 seats.

Periodically the journalists announce ‘the 911 killer has arrived’. As said journalists don’t understand the appeal, they think a 911 killer is something with the same price, size and performance. They never think about the 911 packaging. AMG GT was the last such incarnation. It had no rear seats, and isn’t as useable. Regardless of how it drove it was never going to kill the 911.

The GT3 was Porsche’s attempt to build a killer sports car when they had no other platform to leverage. So out came the seats and up went the price. In truth it should be mid engined and another model (913??). But it’s not and won’t be. But that is because the public will buy it anyway. Because marketing says the cayman gt3 can’t be a thing and if it is (gt4) it can’t get the good motor.

Rear seats are enabled by rear engine and buyers like them both. Journalists are usually wrong.

Ya know, this 2+0 thing is something AMC started with the AMX. That’s right, AMC. The 68 AMX didn’t have a back seat because the chassis is a Javelin chassis that is shortened 6". Javelin’s have a back seat, AMX didn’t becuase for one it was pretending to be a sports car. Yes, I’m a big AMC fan but still have to say that… real sports cars have two seats and at least removeable tops. I’ll excuse the vestigial rear seats in some like the Fiat 124 Spider only because it was back there for some stupid government regulation, like the back seat in the 280Z… in some countries cars were taxed higher if they couldn’t carry four people… at least in theory. That’s probably why the 911 has one too, but I digress.

What most people don’t know is that the AMX was the test mule for the Gremlin. An AMX was hacked on by the factory to have a taillight panel like a Gremlin and the wheelbase was stretched 1" by moving the rear axle back (no sheetmetal modified). I don’t recall if a six was installed or it stayed a V-8. The car was being driven around by one of the engineering staff and was stolen sometime in 69, never to be seen again. Since it would stand out with the mods I’m sure it ended up in a chop shop stripped for parts and cut up. Many AMX owners took a Gremlin rear seat and installed it for their kids in the later 70s because they weren’t ready to give the distinctive two seaters up and didn’t want to buy another car for a few more years. Junior would be okay in the back seat until 6-7 years old at least!!

2+2 is my only option as I want my family to be able to enjoy the car with me. Granted, when I’m on the track it doesn’t matter. Enjoying my 1LE on the street, however, it’s great to have my wife, my 6yo and 3yo all together. That’s the sole reason I choose 2+2 without regret or apprehension.

With 25 million records sold in the US, 40 million worldwide, whose streak of consecutive gold and platinum records is topped only by the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, sold out shows for decades, musical compositions so complex that most seasoned musicians have a hard time playing them, and legions of fans that encompass generations, I can see why you don’t like them.

Air Supply and Seals & Crofts can still be heard on Yacht Rock Radio on SiriusXM if you were wondering.

My R129 Mercedes 500SL was considered a roadster and mine didn’t come with a back seat, just some compartments. They did offer a seat, but it would have been for stuffed animals as it was useless.

Except Rush’s “profound” lyrics, are oft thinly veiled plagiarism of other’s phrases. Like the one on choice, and “on the subway walls” Rush has wonderfully skilled musicians, who record garbage.

Brutal takedown.

Before I slink off to the nearest dark corner to recover and lick my wounds, I would only point out that, along with other things that have sold millions of copies such as the Ford Pinto, the Slapchop, and VHS copies of Ishtar, Rush’s album sales demonstrate little other than the fact that most people’s taste is all in their mouth.

By the way, the primary difference between The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, and Rush is that The Beatles and the Rolling Stones don’t suck.

In the end, any discussion that includes music and cars is a good one. Both evoke passion and personal taste. Like most of us over 50, I grew up with those two things very central in my life. Bought a cheap Vette after university and kinda got the Vette virus which I can’t and don’t really want to shake. Some good friends are the same about Mustangs, others are into MGs… all good! As for Rush… I grew up in the Toronto area. A radio station with the call letters CFNY came on the air in 1976. They played alternative music that you couldn’t hear elsewhere. Their tag line was “The Spirit of Radio”. They played Rush before anyone else had heard of them. Rush’s song is a tribute to the station’s days when DJs had control. I could go through the lyrics and what they refer to but this would turn into an essay. So Rush is simply up there with the Stones, Beatles, Ramones and a bunch of other great bands that were in my ears in my formative years. Think I’m gonna go for a drive and turn up the tunes…

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Lol. Spoken like someone who eats bologna on Wonder bread with mayo. I, conversely, like to fry my bologna and put it on grilled sourdough with stoneground mustard. So, taste aside, we clearly have vastly different ideas of what is considered what is “good” but what is most important, we both have a love for automobiles and how they have changed the very fabric of who we are.

I have owned over fifty autos and driven hundreds in my 57 years and all of them have left an indelible mark on me somewhere, mind, body or soul. I’ve also have spent most of my life as a musician so I hate to be stuck listening to a handful of bands or artists. I love diversity in my music and equally feel the same about the cars I drive. I’ve owned everything from Gremlins to Pintos to BMW’s and Mercedes and so much in-between. My taste may be in my mouth as you allude, but I’m eating good stuff and loving every bite.

@brucerchapman, I was right there with you until the last sentence. Porsche also made the 944 and 928 with usable back seats. Both of those front-engined cars are even more practical than the 911: Capacious hatchbacks that let you store more than a weekend’s worth of luggage, or a set of tires if you’re heading to the track. I wish Porsche made a small sports car with that level of practicality today, or alternately I wish that the Audi TT, which has a similar layout, were more fun to drive.